Debunking Any and All Arguments for the Existence of a God

[Nevermind]

If you have an argument or evidence for the existence of a god, post it here. I will do my best to refute it.

 

[Bit]

RE: Debunking Any and All Creation Arguments

I can too.

Name one single thing in this world that remains forever unchanged, or in other words does not evolve. You can't, so thus evolution must be real.

 

[Nevermind]

RE: Debunking Any and All Creation Arguments

I'd like to re-open this thread for more replies.

 

[Nevermind]

RE: Debunking Any and All Creation Arguments

Since Philosophy and Debates is finally active, and me and @Michael are trying to recruit for Limitless, I'd like to see some arguments posted here.

 

[Michael]

RE: Debunking Any and All Creation Arguments

Since Philosophy and Debates is finally active, and me and @Michael are trying to recruit for Limitless, I'd like to see some arguments posted here.

Are you and I able to post as well?

 

[Nevermind]

RE: Debunking Any and All Creation Arguments

Are you and I able to post as well?

Let's let others post their arguments... for now. I will be responding to anything posted on this thread, of course.

 

[Nevermind]

RE: Debunking Any and All Creation Arguments

I can't believe there haven't been any posts. I mad this thread on another forumm and it received almost 100 replies.

 

[Pun]

RE: Debunking Any and All Creation Arguments

Correct me if I'm wrong but creationism is when people say the earth is a living thing like in the bible? If so I'll just talk about religion. When we die we lose 21 grams of weight that no one knows where it goes. This has been known to be call the "Soul Weight." Matter is not created or destoryed so we can't turn off like a light we have to go somewhere (At least that energy) where does it go if not to "heaven" please note I'm just starting a argument. @Michael @Leader @Sector

 

[Nevermind]

RE: Debunking Any and All Creation Arguments

I'm going to give this one last bump. Let me hear some arguments!

 

[Envy]

RE: Debunking Any and All Creation Arguments

Okay, so as you may know, I am completely on your side on this because I am logical. But let me try arguing from the other perspective. Err... let's see here. If I sound a little logically two-sided at times, sorry.

The different layers of sediment in the earth are each differently aged. Now when scientists are asked to date the age of sediments, the rely on the fossils inside of the sediments to determine the age. Now when asked to date the age of fossils, they rely on the sediments around the fossil to determine the age. Prove how evolution is responsible for the earth's sedimentary layers when the age of them is one big logical fallacy?

The creationists believe humans were designed to live forever. Science has recently proven that if we were to learn something new every second, we would take well over 3 million years to exhaust the memory capacity of our brains. However, no one learns something every second. People learn things very slowly as there life ages. That means the human brain, as small as it is now, can handle the data for literally billions of years. Evolutionists say species evolve to suit the needs of survival. How is it possible for us to have a brain that could hold enough info to last over billions of years, when all we can live up to is 90 -100 years?

Here is a quote that seems to reveal a huge incongruity with evolutionism.
“World population growth rate in recent times is about 2% per year. Practicable application of growth rate throughout human history would be about half that number. Wars, disease, famine, etc. have wiped out approximately one third of the population on average every 82 years. Starting with eight people, and applying these growth rates since the Flood of Noah's day (about 4500 years ago) would give a total human population at just under six billion people. However, application on an evolutionary time scale runs into major difficulties. Starting with one "couple" just 41,000 years ago would give us a total population of 2 x 10^89." -See Morris, Henry, Scientific Creationism (El Cajon, CA: Master Books)

Goodluck @Leader

 

[Nevermind]

RE: Debunking Any and All Creation Arguments

Okay. So I as you may know, I am completely on your side on this because I am logical. But let me try arguing from the other perspective. Err... let's see here. If I sound a little logically two-sided at times, sorry.

The different layers of sediment in the earth are each differently aged. Now when scientists are asked to date the age of sediments, the rely on the fossils inside of the sediments to determine the age. Now when asked to date the age of fossils, they rely on the sediments around the fossil to determine the age. Prove how evolution is responsible for the earth's sedimentary layers when the age of them is one big logical fallacy?

Evolution doesn't account for rock layers. It describes the evolution of simple life into mass complexity through the process of genetic mutations and natural selection.

The creationists believe Human's were designed to live forever. Science has recently proven that if we were to learn something new every second, we would take well over 3 million years to exhaust the memory capacity of our brains. However, no one learns something every second. People learn things very slowly as there life ages. That means the human brain, as small as it is now, can handle the data for literally billions of years. Evolutionists say species evolve to suit the needs of survival. How is it possible for us to have a brain that could hold enough info to last over billions of years, when all we can live up to is 90 -100 years?

I'm confused about this claim. Can you elaborate?

Here is a quote that seems to be a indeed reveal a huge incongruity with evolutionism.
“World population growth rate in recent times is about 2% per year. Practicable application of growth rate throughout human history would be about half that number. Wars, disease, famine, etc. have wiped out approximately one third of the population on average every 82 years. Starting with eight people, and applying these growth rates since the Flood of Noah's day (about 4500 years ago) would give a total human population at just under six billion people. However, application on an evolutionary time scale runs into major difficulties. Starting with one "couple" just 41,000 years ago would give us a total population of 2 x 10^89." -See Morris, Henry, Scientific Creationism (El Cajon, CA: Master Books)

"This claim assumes that the population growth rate was always constant, which is a false assumption. Wars and plagues would have caused populations to drop from time to time. In particular, population sizes before agriculture would have been severely limited and would have had an average population growth of zero for any number of years."

You did your math wrong. If the growth rate was 2% per year, starting with 8 people, you would end up with 401,664,006,217,110,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 people 4,500 years later.

Source.

 

[Envy]

RE: Debunking Any and All Creation Arguments

Evolution doesn't account for rock layers. It describes the evolution of simple life into mass complexity through the process of genetic mutations and natural selection.

Well God is surely responsible for the creation of everything. So are you saying that God is responsible for the formation of earth and its nonliving componenents.

I'm confused about this claim. Can you elaborate?

The brains knowledge storing capability can extend up to millions of years worth of knowledge. Why has "evolution" made our brains so advanced when humans can't even live for 150 years? Why hasn't our bodies "evolved" with our brain?

"This claim assumes that the population growth rate was always constant, which is a false assumption. Wars and plagues would have caused populations to drop from time to time. In particular, population sizes before agriculture would have been severely limited and would have had an average population growth of zero for any number of years."

You did your math wrong. If the growth rate was 2% per year, starting with 8 people, you would end up with 401,664,006,217,110,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 people 4,500 years later.

Source.

I didn't do the math so lemme try doing the math.

Noah's ark was 4250 years ago. I agree that 2% is an extreme number. So lets find a more logical number by doing math.

y = a(1 + r)^t.
Where a is original amount, r is rate, y is final amount, and t is time.

7,000,000,000=8(1+r)^4250
875,000,000=(1+r)^4250
1.00485=1+r
r=.00485 or .485%

So the rate comes down to be .00485 or .485%. Now that we found a more accurate rate. Lets apply it, compounded consecutively, for an estimate. T=Pe^rt
Total Population=8e^(.00485)(4250)
It comes out to be 7,161,186,680. That seems pretty darn accurate.

T=8e^(.00485)t

So now that this new equation is confirmed you can apply it to whatever time length you want. Since evolutionists claim humans originated a couple tens of thousands of years ago. Math doesn't seem to add up now. Heck, even take off a couple years due to
no population growth.
@Leader

 

[Nevermind]

RE: Debunking Any and All Creation Arguments

Well God is surely responsible for the creation of everything. So are you saying that God is responsible for the formation of earth and its nonliving componenents.

God surely didn't create everything. There is absolutely no evidence for that claim.

The brains knowledge storing capability can extend up to millions of years worth of knowledge. Why has "evolution" made our brains so advanced when humans can't even live for 150 years? Why hasn't our bodies "evolved" with our brain?

That's not exactly true. Our brains can hold up to a million gigabytes of data which is roughly 3 million hours of TV. That's around 300 years of

I didn't do the math so lemme try doing the math.

Noah's ark was 4250 years ago. I agree that 2% is an extreme number. So lets find a more logical number by doing math.

y = a(1 + r)^t.
Where a is original amount, r is rate, y is final amount, and t is time.

7,000,000,000=8(1+r)^4250
875,000,000=(1+r)^4250
1.00485=1+r
r=.00485 or .485%

So the rate comes down to be .00485 or .485%. Now that we found a more accurate rate. Lets apply it, compounded consecutively, for an estimate. T=Pe^rt
Total Population=8e^(.00485)(4250)
It comes out to be 7,161,186,680. That seems pretty darn accurate.

T=8e^(.00485)t

So now that this new equation is confirmed you can apply it to whatever time length you want. Since evolutionists claim humans originated a couple hundred thousands years ago. Math doesn't seem to add up now. Heck, even take off a couple years due to
no population growth.
@Leader

You're not accounting for mass extinctions, plagues, wars, etc. This article is quite enlightening on the subject: http://io9.com/5501565/extinction-events-that-almost-wiped-out-humans

 

[Noah]

RE: Debunking Any and All Creation Arguments

I was quite interested in what you would have to say in response to Pun and you completely ignored his question.

 

[Nevermind]

RE: Debunking Any and All Creation Arguments

Correct me if I'm wrong but creationism is when people say the earth is a living thing like in the bible? If so I'll just talk about religion. When we die we lose 21 grams of weight that no one knows where it goes. This has been known to be call the "Soul Weight." Matter is not created or destoryed so we can't turn off like a light we have to go somewhere (At least that energy) where does it go if not to "heaven" please note I'm just starting a argument. @Michael @Leader @Sector

I've never heard of this. Could you provide some evidence or a source for your claim?

 

[Noah]

RE: Debunking Any and All Creation Arguments

I've never heard of this. Could you provide some evidence or a source for your claim?

This was discussed in an episode of Breaking Bad, so it must be true.

 

[Envy]

RE: Debunking Any and All Creation Arguments

God surely didn't create everything. There is absolutely no evidence for that claim.

Then how do you explain the disparity? If the earth aparently evolves for millions of years, and [if not evolutionists, then whoever] believes that layers of the earth form on top of eachother. What proof can you guys have to show for it other than that God, clearly, is responsible for the creation of the entire earth and everything in it?(I don't really know how to religiously argue this view.)

That's not exactly true. Our brains can hold up to a million gigabytes of data which is roughly 3 million hours of TV. That's around 300 years of

Actually it's 2.5 petabytes, which is 2,621,440 gigabytes. But that is assuming that when you watch the TV, you are learning(same as long-term memory) every second. Now, @Leader , be logical with me now. We don't learn things very often. I could figure out a way to mathematically show you the true time length of brain capacity due to an exponential decrease in learning over time. But that would only prove what you should be able to understand conceptually.

You're not accounting for mass extinctions, plagues, wars, etc. This article is quite enlightening on the subject: http://io9.com/5501565/extinction-events-that-almost-wiped-out-humans

I am including this. My equations took the original population & the final population, and found the average, over 4250 years. This includes all deaths, all plagues, everything because it is the inital result straight to the final result(everything inbetween is irrelevant). Now are you telling me that 2 people couldn't progress 41,000 years ago, population wise, to somewhat the same capability that 8 people can after the Flood? It's simple reproduction. Therefore, my equation should remain a constant. It should, therefore, support creationism.

---

I've never heard of this. Could you provide some evidence or a source for your claim?

I do agree with Leader, here. I've never heard of such a thing.

 

[Nevermind]

RE: Debunking Any and All Creation Arguments

Then how do you explain the disparity? If the earth aparently evolves for millions of years, and [if not evolutionists, then whoever] believes that layers of the earth form on top of eachother. What proof can you guys have to show for it other than that God, clearly, is responsible for the creation of the entire earth and everything in it?(I don't really know how to religiously argue this view.)

You have an obvious misunderstanding of the theory of evolution. It describes the process of simple life evolving into complex life through a series of genetic mutations and natural selection. It does not describe the transformation of the Earth.

Actually it's 2.5 petabytes, which is 2,621,440 gigabytes. But that is assuming that when you watch the TV, you are learning(same as long-term memory) every second. Now, @Leader , be logical with me now. We don't learn things very often. I could figure out a way to mathematically show you the true time length of brain capacity of the
brain due to an exponential decrease in learning over time. But that would only prove what you should be able to understand conceptually.

I gave rough numbers, and they are pretty much in agreement with what you put there.

I am including this. My equations took the original population & the final population, and found the average, over 4250 years. This includes all deaths, all plagues, everything because it is the inital result straight to the final result(everything inbetween is irrelevant). Now are you telling me that 2 people couldn't progress 41,000 years ago, population wise, to somewhat the same capability that 8 people can after the Flood? It's simple reproduction. Therefore, my equation should remain a constant. It should, therefore, support creationism.

The increase isn't constant, though. That's the point I'm trying to make.

 

[Envy]

RE: Debunking Any and All Creation Arguments

You have an obvious misunderstanding of the theory of evolution. It describes the process of simple life evolving into complex life through a series of genetic mutations and natural selection. It does not describe the transformation of the Earth.

No, I do agree with you on the theory of evolution. But the argument isn't about evolution, it is about creationism. Am I right? You wish to disprove all theories of creationism using any method. My true point is: can you disprove these?

I gave rough numbers, and they are pretty much in agreement with what you put there.

So you do agree that the time table for the brain is definitely a lot more than a hundred years, perhaps more than tens of thousands of years?

The increase isn't constant, though. That's the point I'm trying to make.

I'm going to tell you what is actually constant. I agree with you that over time the increase is not constant. But this is the average of the exponential increase. An average is used to get from the initial to the final point. It combines all increases together and finds the mean of that.

Now, the only one counterargument you can use against this is that I used the population and time after the Flood occured instead of when humans aproximately existed, but I will now prove why that does not apply. If I used scientific approximation of 41,000 years ago with a couple. There is a huge disparity in the data, and the average rate is nearly impossible to find. The disparities being that if you actually take a couple, and put them on an island together(one containing resources much alike the time 41,000 years ago). You will find that there population will in fact drastically increase over time. So for there to have been 35,000 years with little population increase, it doesn't add up.

(Time to get religious) So you keep saying they all got knocked out somehow. Now let's assume that they all were, indeed, killed somehow, perhaps in the same way as the Flood? Yes, I do believe creationism wins here.
@Leader

 

[NULLNULLNULL]

RE: Debunking Any and All Creation Arguments

The only thing I could think of is that an omnipotent timeless creator is the best answer at the moment for the origins of the universe. No scientific theories have been proven yet (multiverse theory, vacuum theory), so a god would seem very likely to be the answer to how the universe would've been made. Although there is no evidence to make this theory any truer, it seems most possible.
(ps I'm not a theist, but I've heard this argument before)